Podcast: Play in new window | Download
I’m gonna give you the short answer to the question of why the Expanded Universe got the boot, and then we’re gonna dive into it. The short answer is because Lucas’s view of the Star Wars universe is the only one that matters. And sure, as the creator, the buck should stop with him. But there’s a lot more to the story.
I just pulled the 20th anniversary edition of Heir to the Empire out of the library the other day, and if you’re not into the Expanded Universe, that’s the very first EU book released, in 1991, which essentially brought the Star Wars franchise back from the brink of extinction.
In the foreword, then-president of Lucasfilm Licensing Howard Roffman (now EVP of Lucasfilm Franchise Management) tells the story of the founding of the EU, and the basics of the ground rules – that they had to be set in the post-Return of the Jedi era, and the prequel trilogy era was off limits, since Lucas might decide to do those movies eventually. Also, that no major characters would be killed.
Beyond that, it was an anything goes scenario. Yes, the EU had to respect what happened in the movies and the Clone Wars cartoon series, but Lucas was famously hands-off about it.
This is where we start to talk about canon. “Canon,” refers to what’s considered the official story of Star Wars, and there are actually multiple levels of canon, if you can believe it. It’s not all just one canon.
“G” canon, as they call it, is the ultimate, since it originated from George himself. The movies are the be-all, end-all (including the upcoming Episodes VII, VIII, and IX), and their supporting reference books, novelizations, and radio plays are also “G” canon if they don’t conflict with the actual movies.
Then there’s “T” canon, which is for the 6 seasons of The Clone Wars cartoon series, and the upcoming Star Wars Rebels series. Note that these are not made by Lucas himself, so they get kicked to a lower level. But the makers of these toons are deeply involved with Lucasfilm and are part of their newly formed story group, so they get props over the next level…
Which is “C” canon, and that will be the books, comics, and games coming out after April 25, 2014. All of those are going to be tied in more carefully to the new “G” and “T” canon material being produced. Check out this article from /Film about the future of long-form storytelling that dives into this a bit further.
Below that is “S” canon, the basement of continuity, which is where all the Expanded Universe stuff got kicked to earlier this year.
And heaven help us, but there’s an “N” canon for non-canon items, and a “D” canon for the Star Wars Detours comedy series that currently is in development limbo. But they have nothing to do with our time together here.
So, there are two quotes I want to share with you, collected courtesy of the fine editors of Wikipedia. The first comes from an interview with Lucas for the August 2005 issue of Starlog. Responding to a question about the EU, he says:
I don’t read that stuff. I haven’t read any of the novels. I don’t know anything about that world. That’s a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent.
And he goes on to say that:
When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.
The other piece is this, from an interview with Total Film magazine in May 2008. He says,
There have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn’t at all what I would have done with it.
So you’re going to hear about giving the new crop of Star Wars creators the freedom to make up new stories and not be hemmed in by what’s come before. But the real reason the EU got bounced down the canon ladder is because George had plans for what Episodes VII-IX would be about, even though he denied it for many years. And as we all know, and as he likes to remind us, his vision is the only one that matters.
Star Wars Fun Fact
Surprising and little known Star Wars tidbits, usually related to today’s Force Feature.
I didn’t plan it this way, but it happens to be the birthday of Archie Goodwin, one of the early, early contributors to the Star Wars Expanded Universe. His run on the Star Wars comic books started with issue #11 from May 1978, and he even wrote for the Star Wars syndicated newspaper comic strip, too.
Life on “Tweet”-ooine
A featured dispatch from the Star Wars Twitterverse!I now nominate @HamillHimself, @carrieffisher and @TheWookieeRoars to the Carbonite Ice Challenge #StarWars pic.twitter.com/yoUMJoSLiM
— Star Wars Collection (@my_starwars) September 6, 2014
Star Wars Swag Bag
So many fun, quirky, and awesome ways to bring Star Wars into your daily life!Star Wars Lightsaber BBQ Tongs – click the pic for details!
Trivia Time!
Test your knowledge of the Star Wars universe!Yesterday’s answer: Biggs and Tank
Today’s question: Where was Luke planning to go to have R2-D2’s memory erased?
Permalink
Hi Allen-
Love your show, I listen to it everyday. I look forward to talking to you when you come on our show on the 28th.
I’m sorry, I hate to disagree, but I think you have a few facts about the EU incorrect. That, or I misunderstood what you were saying today!
You wrote… ““Canon,” refers to what’s considered the official story of Star Wars, and there are actually multiple levels of canon, if you can believe it. It’s not all just one canon.”
The levels of canon that you talked about, G, T, C, ect, were the OLD way of distinguishing canon. Lucasfilm has done away with this old system. After they recently wiped the EU slate clean, there is only the “new canon” and “Legends” now.
The new canon is the films, Clone Wars, Rebels, and the new books and comics going fourth.
Here is a quote from Wookieepedia… “As of April 25, 2014, the only previously published materials that are considered canon are the six Star Wars films and the Star Wars: The Clone Wars television series and film, while the Expanded Universe is no longer considered canon and was re-termed as the “Legends” brand. Most Star Wars material released after April 25, 2014—with some exceptions—is composed in collaboration with the Lucasfilm Story Group, making it part of the “new canon.”
Things are now much simpler. We no longer need to worry about what level of canon stories are. They are either canon, or they are not (a.k.a. “Legends”.).
If I misunderstood your post today, I apologize. Its late, I’m tired, I’ve been wrong before. (Just ask my wife!)
Please let me know what you think. Sorry to nit-pick, but its part of my nerd-dna! 😉
-Tim
Permalink
Hi Tim,
Thanks so much for the kind words, and I’m looking forward to coming on to your show!
You’re absolutely correct about the canon situation, and I should have been clearer in explaining that the G, T, C, S, etc. was the old way of doing things. I wanted to call attention to the previous levels to give the folks who aren’t as well versed on the canon situation an idea of how crazy-detailed they’ve been about the levels over the years, thinking that the drop out of canon might be a little more stark when shown in that light.
Totally appreciate the correction, and very kindly delivered too, thank you!
Permalink
The Expanded Universe was never canon. The Expanded Universe took place in a parallel Star Wars universe. That was the only way Lucas would allow to exist at all. Lucas reserved the right to take things from the EU and make them canon, and he did on occassion. But it was never anything big. Planets, names, vehicles, background characters. Even that was rare. – Even Howard Roffman acknowledged this in a 2017 televised interview wherein he said the EU was an “alternate universe” and that Lucas really didn’t care about it. Here is the link to the video and the quotes in question.
Audience #1: You got a rapid fan base, it seems like nowadays the way Disney handles Star Wars canon, very well controlled, very tight, but back in the ’90s when it’s a blueprint of books and games and other things, how did … Do you internally manage —
“That was one of my mandates, when I began the spin off publishing program it was a sacrosanct rule that everything had to relate to each other, be consistent with each other and be consistent with the movies, ‘which were canon.’
We were pretty religious about doing that, our biggest problem was a guy named George Lucas, because he didn’t buy into the spin off fiction and the game program and all the ‘alternate universe’ we were creating.”
We wanted it to be one universe,we felt strongly that that’s what it needed to be, but George as the filmmaker didn’t want to be beholden to somebody else’s creative vision.
So we would have very interesting skirmishes because we had a bunch of stuff that became, for the fans, pretty much canon [head-canon] about what happened after Return of the Jedi, what different places in the galaxy were called, lots of different things and if he was proposing to do something in the prequels that contradicted that we would have long debates which usually ended at least after the first session with “I don’t care this is what I’m doing”, and maybe after the 4th or 5th session sometimes “Alright ‘maybe’ we can change it this way”
Now that everything is controlled by one central committee [Lucasfilm Story Group] we can have canon that applies to everything.
Messing with a Classic — Howard Roffman, Lucasfilm, 2017 interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMKHgwH-gY4
Permalink
There is also this interview with Dave Filoni, Lucas’ protege for 8 years whom worked with him on the Clone Wars series, they are like father and son and still in contact. This was on the Star Wars Show where Filoni states the only things Lucas considered Canon was the 6 movies and the Clone Wars series. He said ‘he made it very clear’, that was is it.
“There’s this notion that everything changed when everything became Legends. And I can see why people think that. But, you know, having worked with George I can tell you that it was always very clear — and he made it very clear — that the films and the TV shows were the only things that he considered Canon. That was it.
“So everything else was a world of fun ideas, exciting characters, great possibilities, the EU was created to explore all those things.And I know and I fully respect peoples opinions about it that some of the material said ‘the next canon part of it’ [It wasn’t canon]…. But from the filmmaking world I was brought into, *the films and TV shows were it”.*
~ Dave Filoni speaking about working with George Lucas
This is the actual video of when Dave Filoni said the above quotes during an interview on ‘The Star Wars show’ [41.40 mark]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcNXPNXOv2A&t=16s
Permalink
There are also a ton of quotes from every big name in Star Wars that confirm this. Lucas Licensing certainly did intentionally misrepresent the EU, they decieved fans into thing it was more legit than it actually was because they were concerned of fans knew Lucas didn’t consider it canon, people would be less likely to spend money on it because ‘it didn’t count’.
Leland Chee comes clean about it as well. Furthermore both Leland and Pablo Hidalgo during an interview together stated that the “Canon Tiers” were very misunderstood and that they did not have anything to do with ‘canonicity’, it was only a filing system for the Holocron. There were other quotes that illuded to this long before 2013, for example –
“The G/C/S-level canon stuff is a construct specifically for the Holocron. Non-Holocron users would have no idea what this stuff even means and I would say most of the people who use the Holocron don’t use the field, instead looking specifically to the source of the material. Individual entries are not broken down by canon level.”
~ Leland Chee 2005
Quotes and link to interview below –
“I think people over emphasize the importance of the canon level. The intent of the canon levels was, as the main intent was ‘if someones looking for the ships from a film, they can than use those fields to check for them only in the films,and thus seperate that from what was in the EU. So we can look at it case by case. I think there is an over emphasis of what those fields mean and what they represent.
~ Leland Chee
“That ‘level of canon’ thus helps in terms of bookkeeping. Those ‘canon levels’ are for the holocron.” ~ Pablo Hidalgo
ForceCast #273: The Galaxy Is Reading – Interview with Leland Chee and Pablo Hidalgo, 2013
Starts at about the 1 hour mark so 1:00 – 1:02 mark
http://www.forcecast.net/story/home/ForceCast_273_The_Galaxy_Is_Reading_154431.asp
———–
Leland Chee further acknowleges there were 2 universes and Lucas considered nothing from the EU as canon. Not even things that didn’t contradict the movies. The EU stories happened but they only happened in the Parallel Universe as Lucas referred to it.
Lucas said of the Expanded Universe: 2005
“I don’t read that stuff. I haven’t read any of the novels. I don’t know anything about that world. *That’s a different world than my world.*… *When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one.* They try to make *their universe* as consistent *with mine* as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.”
https://ibb.co/Km1CcNs
Cinescape, 2002
*“There are two worlds here,”* explained Lucas. *“There’s my world*, which is the movies, and there’s *this other world that has been created*, *which I say is the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books.””
Permalink
“What George did with the films and The Clone Wars was pretty much *his universe* ,” Chee said. “He didn’t really have that much concern for what we were doing in the books and games. *So the Expanded Universe was very much separate.”*
~ Leland Chee, 2017 – SYFY WIRE
——————
*“Lucas’ canon – and when I say ‘his canon’, I’m talking about what he was doing in the films and what he was doing in The Clone Wars* – was hugely important. But what we were doing in *the books really wasn’t on his radar.”*
–Leland Chee, 2018
————-
“The dual universe question comes up often. *I know George Lucas has mentioned it being two universes* , but that’s not how I see it. His vision is definitely not beholden to ours, but ours is definitely beholden to his.”
~ Leland Chee 2012
—————-
“I did not have direct contact with George about Star Wars continuity. Dave Filoni, who worked on Clone Wars, definitely did. So for me, the spirit of George’s work is what’s in the films, and it doesn’t go too far beyond that.”
~ Leland Chee 2018
————–
“Dave Filoni is better equipped to relay Lucas’ true feelings about the EU.”
~ Leland Chee
“The terminology of “Expanded Universe” was a careful one; it expanded on the world created in the core stories, but was never officially meant to be Star Wars canon, according to the Maker himself, George Lucas.”
~ Dave Filoni 2017
——————–
*”There is no more clear illustration of the difference between the Expanded Universe and the Star Wars created by George Lucas. The EU is a well of ideas, and there’s what’s on screen. They don’t live in the same universe. Everyone wants to think so, I know… We just need to think of it all as a creative collection of fun ideas separate from what George Lucas has made.”*
~ Dave Filoni 2012
———————
“In the old days, George Lucas saw his universe as separate from publishing [EU]. He wasn’t at all interested in connecting.”*
~ Pablo Hidalgo [Lucasfilm Story Group] 2016
http://i.imgur.com/6ZOkAau.png
——————
*Pablo Hidalgo on Lucas and the EU being separate Universes.*
https://i.redd.it/3fpbkocr43q01.png
*”He [Lucas] only considers his movies and TV projects as his universe, and told the Clone Wars writers to only worry about those.”*
-Pablo Hidalgo [Lucasfilm Story Group]
———————-
*”Canon is only what’s on the screen. – Episodes I-VI, TCW and what’s to come.”*
Pablo Hidalgo, 2013 –
https://ibb.co/S0fYM7q
———-
“From Issue 77 Of Insider, Using Dark Empire & The Thrawn Trilogy As Examples.
*”So so episodes beyond Return of the Jedi exist? Nothing beyond possinle story points and ideas, certainly not fleshed out story treatments or scripts. Fans often wonder if Dark Empire or the Thrawn Trilogy were based off those notes or are meant to be Episodes VII, VIII, IX. – That’s not the case.
Those works are the creation of their respective authors with the guidance of editors at Lucas Licensing. They are not, nor ever were, meant to be George Lucas’ definitive vision of what happens next”*
~ Pablo Hidalgo, 2004
https://ibb.co/K9PMgH3
——————
“But Lucas allows for an Expanded Universe that exists parallel to the one he directly oversees. […] *Though these [Expanded Universe] stories may get his stamp of approval, they don’t enter his canon unless they are depicted cinematically in one of his projects.”*
~ Pablo Hidalgo, Star Wars: The Essential Reader’s Companion, 2012
——–
Even EU authors knew –
“They’re there to be enjoyed as unofficial Legends. But, as Zahn also points out, the Expanded Universe wasn’t really ever official regardless of what the fans thought.”
~ Timothy Zahn, 2017
———————————————————————–
In 2014, Disney declared the Expanded Universe was no longer canon. It became ‘Legends’. What do you think of this, seeing all of your work suddenly become non-canon?
Those of us writing the EU were always told, all along, from the very beginning (have I stressed that strongly enough?), “Only the Movies are Canon.” Sure, it was disappointing. And I hope the EU books aren’t all taken out of print, because many of them are outstanding explorations of all that Star Wars means to the fans. And fun to read, besides!
~ Kathy Tyers, EU author Interview [Truce at Bakura], 2018
https://starwarsinterviews.com/various/authors/kathy-tyers-author/
—————–
That means Zahn’s books won’t be directly adapted, but the author says that was always the case: “The books were always just the books.”
“It could be an entirely new storyline, but if he picks and chooses bits and pieces from the expanded universe, we’d all be thrilled to death.”
~ Timothy Zahn
——————————————————————–
Timothy Zahn: As far as I know, George Lucas himself is not involved. He has a liaison group that deals with the book people, the game people, etc. They do the day-to-day work. Occasionally, he will be asked a question and will give an answer.”
“I did meet Lucas once for a few minutes.”
~ Timothy Zahn
—————
“In the canon debate, it is important to notice that LucasFilm and Lucas are different entities. The only canon source of Star Wars are the radio plays, the movie novels and the movies themselves – in Lucas’ mind, nothing else exists, and no authorized LucasFilm novel will restrict his creativity in any way.””
Steven Sansweet, EU Author – Director of Content Management and head of Fan Relations at Lucasfilm Ltd.
———————————————————————
“It’s not something we can really worry about, so we don’t. Lots of people have been working on lots of SW extrapolations for the last twenty years, in good faith. There were never any promises from George Lucas or Lucasfilm regarding the acceptance of their work into some wider canon.”
~ Peet Janes, Dark Horse Comics Editor,1998
—————–
“[Steven Sansweet] was asked specifically if any of the characters like Admiral Thrawn and so on would make appearances in AoTC or the movie thereafter, and *he responded quite clearly that that all the EU material is ”taking place in a separate universe”.* […] there were quite a few nasty mumbles from the audience when he (Sansweet) said what he said.”
Steven Sansweet, EU Author – Director of Content Management and head of Fan Relations at Lucasfilm
——–
“It is unfortunate that [EU author Karen Traviss is] moving on because [of] her opinion that canon is being changed. I guess the big problem is the assumption that her work is canon in the first place. After working with George on The Clone Wars series I know there are elements of her work that are not in line with his vision of Star Wars, and in my mind only George Lucas’ Star Wars is canon. Everything else is Expanded Universe. In my opinion, George’s work on Star Wars, whether he created it before or after other writers, trumps all because he created Star Wars in the first place, period.”
~ Henry Gilroy, The Clone Wars series Head Writer/ EU Author [Comics] 2008
—————-
Dark Empire Introduction – Kevin J. Anderson –
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/2tg9rk/excerpt_from_kevin_jandersons_intro_to_the_dark/
“When you read Dark Empire, or any of the other novels [EU] remember that although Lucasfilm has approved them, these are our sequels, not George Lucas’s.”
“If Lucasfilm ever makes films that take place after Return of the Jedi, they will be George Lucas’s own creations, probably with no connect to anything we have written.”
But in the meantime, enjoy these graphic stories, read the novels of Timothy Zahn, Kathy Tyers, Kenneth Flynt, Dave Wolverton, and myself.[Kevin J. Anderson]””
—————————————————
“That said, I think George has always felt that the comics were an “alternate Star Wars universe” from the films. I don’t think he ever saw the comics as canon — although he did use them as a resource for ideas and images.”
Tom Veitch, EU Author, Dark Empire Trilogy 2016
———-
These are just examples, there’s a lot more.
Permalink
The Clone Wars series was actually G-Canon, Lucas wrote all the stories season 2 on ward and he was as involved with TCW as with the movies and he stated he made no distinction as follows –
“This is Star Wars, and I don’t make a distinction between [The Clone Wars] series and the films.”
~ George Lucas, SciFiNow, October 2011
————-
More quotes from Lucas that leave no doubt on his opinions and relation with the EU –
“And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn’t at all what I would have done with it.* The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn’t come back to life, *the Emperor doesn’t get cloned and Luke doesn’t get married…”*
~ George Lucas, Flannelled One, 2008
—————————
”The novels and comic books are other authors’ interpretations of my creation. Sometimes, I tell them what they can and cant do, but I just don’t have the time to read them. *They’re not my vision of what Star Wars is.*
~ George Lucas 2004
——————-
“I like to refer to the Interview with Lucas in the Special Editions.When asked about the novels and what not, he simply says:
”Those are another author’s interpretation of what I’ve created, *and not to be taken seriously, as far as what is really going on in the Star Wars world.”*
~ George Lucas
————————–
“Q: What do you think of the Expanded Universe of books?
*A: “The books are in a different universe. * I’ve not read any of them, and I told them when they started writing I wouldn’t read any of them and I blocked out certain periods [they couldn’t touch where the real story happens].”**
~ George Lucas 2003
———————————
*”Howard Roffman [President of Lucas Licensing], He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there’s the TV show and then there’s all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn’t have anything to do with each other. So I said, “OK, go ahead.”*
~ George Lucas 2008
—————————
“TVGuide: Yet novelists have written “Star Wars” sequels using the same characters and extending their stories.
George Lucas: Oh, sure. They’re done outside my little universe.”
~ George Lucas, Flannelled One, November 2001 – TV Guide interview
———————–
“Q: Do you supervise the development of all the off-movie stories? After all, Star Wars exists in books, comics.
A: “You know, I try not to think about that. I have my own world in movies and I follow it.” ~ George Lucas, Flannelled One, July 2002 – From a TheForce.Net
——-
This last one was from an Interview Lucas did and was questioned about the EU –
“The question selected from The Furry Conflict poll was: How much does the Expanded Universe influence the movies?
As I asked him, Lucas leaned back a moment and said to me “Very little.” When he first had agreed to let people write Expanded Universe books, he had said “I’m not gonna read ‘em” and it was a “different universe” and that he wanted to keep away from the time period of his saga. He jokingly complained, however, that now when he writes a script he has to look through an encyclopedia to make sure that a name he comes up with doesn’t come too close to something in the EU.
He later commented that the future of Star Wars may lie in other venues outside of feature film.”
– “Marc Xavier”, November 2003, “The Furry Conflict and the Great ‘Beard‘ of the Galaxy”
(report based on a Q&A session with George Lucas which occurred at USC on 11-19-03)